Geoff Bennett:
New reports released today show that Elon Musk has donated more than a quarter of a billion dollars to support Republicans in the midterm elections since July. And that brings his total political contributions this election cycle to more than $365 million, making him by far the largest known donor and one of the largest political contributors in modern U.S. history.
Musk has remained quiet this election cycle, but questions remain about his influence over the federal government.
And that influence is the focus of a new book by Michael Lewis, the bestselling author of “Moneyball” and “The Big Short.”
Lisa Desjardins spoke with him about Musk’s time running DOGE and the federal workers who found themselves in his crosshairs.
Lisa Desjardins:
In the first months of 2025, Elon Musk oversaw DOGE’s shock and awe campaign to cut $2 trillion from the federal budget. The promised savings never materialized, and Musk left the government after four months.
But the chaos and budget cuts, including tens of thousands of layoffs, many of which were later deemed illegal, have had a lasting impact on the civil service. A new book by Michael Lewis unravels some of what happened with new details from the institutions Musk attacked. It’s called “Blockers: Rebels in the Deep State,” after the name Musk used to describe federal workers unwilling to follow his orders.
And Michael Lewis joins us now.
Thank you so much.
Michael Lewis, author, “Blockers: Rebels in the Deep State”: Thanks for having me, Lisa.
Lisa Desjardins:
You start with the story of Colin O’Brien. He was the head of security for the Independent Institute of Peace and single-handedly tried to stop DOGE from taking over their building. He ultimately failed, but at one point he managed to corral a group of DOGE employees and security guards from entering the building.
Michael Lewis:
Yes, seal them in your own building.
Lisa Desjardins:
Why did you start then?
Michael Lewis:
Because I think the very beginning of this story – it continues. Just because DOGE is gone doesn’t mean this kind of thing exists – things like this still don’t happen.
But the prerequisite for what happened in the federal government, in this kind of takeover, begins with a pretty crude seizure of all weapons. For example, we don’t think about it because it wasn’t a shooting war, but there was this independent entity here, the Peace Institute.
It receives funding from Congress, but it is certainly independent of the president, and DOGE was showing that it could support it as well. And to do this, they needed not only the FBI, which they eventually co-opted, but also the private security company hired by the Peace Institute.
And the way they get them is they say if the weapons — your weapons don’t come to our side, we’re going to eliminate your contracts with the State Department.
Lisa Desjardins:
Your contracts much more important.
Michael Lewis:
Your contracts much more important. They blackmail them for this.
So if you look at the very beginning of this phenomenon, they seize power in a very crude way, and then they cut off the head of anyone who is like an independent arbiter, the inspectors general, anyone who could identify — actually identify waste fraud abuses, corruption.
And so, they create the environment in which they can do whatever they want. That’s why I started with this.
Lisa Desjardins:
When I read the book, I felt like you reached a few revelations, and there is one that I would like you to read.
Michael Lewis:
Oh, sure.
So, yeah, look, I think the civil service is like this great undiscovered goldmine of material, of people, and it’s incredibly important. And that’s — I think I’m creating the civil service.
“American public servants, as a group, have learned that any attention they receive tends to be negative attention. And anyway, the kind of person who goes to work for the government is generally not looking to be the life of the party. The federal bureaucracy wasn’t exactly out of touch with the society it served, but its society was out of touch with it.”
Lisa Desjardins:
What do you mean by that?
Michael Lewis:
I mean, I think…
Lisa Desjardins:
A society disconnected from federal workers.
Michael Lewis:
I mean, I think what I wrote about these people demonstrates that point.
These are incredible characters – incredible characters doing incredibly important things. Like, I drink this without caring because someone in the government did something. And you eat food because someone in government did something.
They’re — it’s — the government is full of these experts who could make a lot more in the private sector, who are obsessed with something interesting that the private sector doesn’t want to deal with. And their stories are not told. I feel like every politician, before they stand up to give a speech or do a town hall meeting, should identify a public official whose work they admire and explain why it’s important, so that we all get a little education.
Lisa Desjardins:
One of the officials you’re talking about is Kathleen Walters. She was the privacy officer for the IRS, basically responsible for protecting their data when DOGE came and took the data.
Michael Lewis:
Yes.
Lisa Desjardins:
She ultimately didn’t succeed, but she managed to fend them off for a little while.
Michael Lewis:
She would lock herself in conference rooms with the lights off so they couldn’t find her because they were running around trying to kick her out. It was a real game of hide and seek inside the tax office.
It’s the human being who stands between your tax return and a political operation that would weaponize it, that would use it against you.
Lisa Desjardins:
Why was DOGE trying to get this data? How did they use it?
Michael Lewis:
Well, it was DHS.
Lisa Desjardins:
Yes.
Michael Lewis:
Now it’s probably DOGE and DHS. It was something called ICE Innovation Lab. But within the IRS, there is a database of seven million tax returns from undocumented workers.
We’ve been telling the undocumented community for 30 years that if you file your taxes and pay taxes, you have a better chance of becoming a citizen. You show that you are ready to participate in society, to contribute to society. And we have told this community that tax returns are as sacred as citizens’ tax returns.
No information will be used against you. What DHS’s DOGE discovered, ICE discovered that the tax returns contained the most recent home address…
Lisa Desjardins:
Address.
Michael Lewis:
…of seven million people. And they wanted to go find people at home.
What we do know is that I found people who owned and managed low-income Latino apartment buildings in the South and Southwest, that all of a sudden, in April of last year, ICE patrol officers, the army of ICE, were showing up at midnight with the addresses and knew exactly where people were.
And the people who manage the apartment buildings had programs in place in response, like: we’ll move you every six months, so your address is constantly changing.
Lisa Desjardins:
Because we don’t know how, but somehow it does: the federal government found you.
Michael Lewis:
Yes. Yes.
When I met these people, they said to me: wait, wait, you just explained to us how they know where they live.
Lisa Desjardins:
Elon Musk is indeed back in government. He was appointed to work with the Pentagon on an initiative addressing the future of warfare. You were able to speak to insiders around DOGE. What does that tell you about the culture there and what might happen to Elon Musk?
Michael Lewis:
DOGE is mysterious, because Elon Musk is not a fool.
But it looks like he was on a stupid mission. He said he would reduce the deficit by $2 trillion. He only attacked a part of the government which represented about 20 percent of the budget. It was never intended to cut $2 trillion. It would never have worked.
Lisa Desjardins:
RIGHT.
Michael Lewis:
It was doomed to fail if he actually tried to do what he claimed to be trying to do.
If, on the other hand, what he was trying to do was cause chaos and confusion and create a lot of smoke and explosions, so that the huge power grab that then happened could happen without people really paying that much attention because there was so much going on at once, well, then that made a lot of sense.
The weird thing is if you talk to Elon Musk’s friends, they say Elon never lies. He always at least believes what he says. But it just seems impossible that he could believe what he was saying about DOGE. The lies are so absurd.
What worries me about him in the federal government is that I just don’t trust him. I mean, I don’t know what he’s going to do. And I know he’s going to… whatever he says, I know it’s not reliable. He may think it’s true, but those are the words of a fabulist.
So, I mean, maybe it’s useful. Maybe it can help, but I would be very careful.
Lisa Desjardins:
Michael Lewis, the book is called “Blockers.”
Thank you very much for speaking with us.
Michael Lewis:
Thank you for inviting me.
Gn headline
